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Should my dad contribute to a SEP IRA for 2023 if they're already planning backdoor Roth?

My dad recently stopped being self-employed and started working for a big corporation. My mom (who's a tax accountant but doesn't specialize in retirement planning) calculated that he could still contribute up to $12,889 to a SEP IRA for 2023 based on his self-employment income from last year. Their tax situation is: - 2023 tax bracket: 24% - 2024 tax bracket: Either 24% or 32% (mom's still crunching the numbers) - 2025 tax bracket: Probably 32%, maybe even 35% in future years They've accumulated decent savings in taxable accounts but haven't really maximized tax-advantaged options in the past. I've helped Dad set up his new 401k to max out regular contributions plus mega backdoor Roth, and plan to do the same for Mom if her plan allows it. They have some old Traditional IRAs that we're rolling into their 401ks (which have good fund options) to clear the way for backdoor Roth contributions for the next 5-10 years until retirement. My concern is that a SEP IRA contribution would be pre-tax and cause pro-rata issues for backdoor Roth conversions. And from what I understand, unlike Traditional IRAs, you can't roll SEP IRAs into a 401k. I see three options: 1. Skip the SEP IRA entirely and just do backdoor Roth IRA every year 2. Contribute $12,889 to SEP IRA for 2023 to get the $3,093 tax break but give up future backdoor Roth options 3. Do both: Contribute to SEP IRA for 2023, then convert it to Roth in 2024 (paying taxes), and continue backdoor Roth in future years Option 2 seems worst. For option 3, if they stay in the 24% bracket for 2024, it's basically getting the same tax benefit as a larger backdoor Roth. But if they jump to 32% in 2024, they'd pay $4,124 in taxes on the conversion, which seems counterproductive. Am I missing anything in my analysis? What would you recommend?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet - your parents should consider whether they expect to be in a lower tax bracket in retirement. If they believe they'll be in the 24% bracket or lower during retirement, then making the SEP contribution now could make sense even if they can't do backdoor Roth later. The traditional advice is: - Contribute to pre-tax accounts when your current tax rate is higher than your expected retirement tax rate - Contribute to Roth accounts when your current tax rate is lower than your expected retirement tax rate If they're already in the 24% bracket moving to 32%+, and expect to withdraw at rates below 24% in retirement, the math might favor taking the tax break now with the SEP contribution, despite the backdoor Roth complications.

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Caesar Grant

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That's a good point. They're planning to retire in about 8-10 years, and I think their retirement income will put them around the 22-24% bracket based on their pension and expected 401k/IRA withdrawals. So it sounds like pre-tax contributions still make sense now, especially in 2023 if they're in the 24% bracket. But doesn't that still leave the question of whether to do the SEP for 2023 vs. prioritizing backdoor Roth going forward? The SEP would block backdoor Roth unless we convert it (paying taxes again).

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If their retirement tax bracket is expected to be 22-24%, then yes, pre-tax contributions make sense now, especially while they're still in the 24% bracket. For your specific question about 2023 SEP vs. future backdoor Roth, I'd recommend a hybrid approach. Have your dad make a SEP contribution for 2023, but perhaps not the full $12,889. He could contribute just enough to keep him from spilling into a higher bracket. This gives some tax savings now while limiting the amount that would affect future backdoor Roth conversions. Then for 2024 and beyond, focus on maxing out his employer 401k (including any after-tax contributions for mega backdoor Roth) before considering backdoor Roth IRA strategies. The 401k contributions would give him the pre-tax benefit without the pro-rata complications of the SEP.

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OP, has your mom considered exactly how much extra income would push them from 24% to 32%? The jump between those brackets is pretty significant (about $190k to $364k for married filing jointly in 2023). If they're right on the edge of the 32% bracket for 2024, the SEP contribution for 2023 actually makes even MORE sense because it could potentially keep them in the 24% bracket next year too. This would be a double win - tax savings for 2023 AND 2024. Also, for what it's worth, I was in a similar situation and ended up converting my SEP IRA to Roth in smaller chunks over several years during periods when my income was temporarily lower (like when I took unpaid leave for a few months).

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Demi Lagos

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This is a really good point about being near the bracket edge. Moving from 24% to 32% is an 8% jump which is huge. If a $12,889 SEP contribution could keep them in the lower bracket for 2024, that would save significantly more than just the direct tax benefit on the contribution itself.

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Caesar Grant

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That's actually a fantastic point I hadn't considered! They're definitely near the edge of the bracket - I think my mom estimated they'll be about $15-20k over the 24% threshold for 2024 without any additional deductions. So a $12,889 SEP contribution for 2023 wouldn't directly affect 2024 taxes, but it would free up cash they could use for other deductions or opportunities in 2024. I'll definitely bring this up with them - maybe they could increase 401k contributions enough in 2024 to stay in the 24% bracket if they preserve more cash now with the SEP contribution for 2023. Thanks for this perspective!

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One thing nobody has mentioned yet - make sure you're also depreciating the property correctly once you convert it to rental use. You'll need to determine the fair market value at the time of conversion (June 1, 2023) and begin depreciating from that point. The depreciable basis would be the lower of your adjusted basis or the fair market value at conversion. And remember you can only depreciate the building, not the land. Most people use a 80/20 or 75/25 split for building/land unless you have an appraisal that states otherwise. Property taxes are just one piece of the rental property puzzle!

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Omar Fawzi

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Is there an easy way to figure out the fair market value? I converted my property in September and I'm not sure how to establish what it was worth at that specific time.

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There are several ways to establish fair market value at conversion. The most accurate would be to get an appraisal, but that costs money. Less expensive alternatives: You can check comparable home sales in your area from around the conversion date. Real estate websites like Zillow or Redfin often show recent sales data, though these aren't perfect. Another option is to look at your property tax assessment if it's relatively recent and your county assesses at or near market value (some counties assess at a percentage of market value, so you'd need to adjust accordingly). If you purchased the property within 1-2 years of conversion, you might be able to use the purchase price with some adjustments for market changes since then. Whatever method you choose, document your reasoning and keep records of how you determined the value. The IRS may ask for this if you're ever audited.

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Chloe Wilson

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Don't forget another important aspect - if you plan to eventually convert the property back to personal use or sell it, keep very detailed records of all improvements and expenses. I made the mistake of not tracking these properly and it caused major headaches when I sold my rental. Also, start a separate bank account for the rental income and expenses if you haven't already. Commingling personal and rental funds makes accounting much harder and increases audit risk.

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Great point on the separate account. I've been running all my rental stuff through my personal checking account and it's already becoming a mess trying to sort what's what. Did you set up a business account or just a separate personal account?

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Just a warning for anyone doing backdoor Roth contributions: make sure you're not overlooking the pro-rata rule if you have other traditional IRA assets. I got majorly screwed on my taxes because I didn't realize my SEP IRA would affect my backdoor Roth conversion taxes. Had to pay tax on most of the conversion even though I was trying to do a non-taxable backdoor.

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Zara Ahmed

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What exactly is the pro-rata rule? I've been doing backdoor Roth for 2 years but have an old traditional IRA with about $30k in it. Should I be worried?

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Yes, you should definitely be concerned. The pro-rata rule means you can't just convert your non-deductible contributions tax-free if you have other pre-tax IRA money. The IRS looks at all your IRA accounts (traditional, SEP, SIMPLE) as one big pot when you do a conversion. The taxable portion is calculated based on the ratio of pre-tax money to the total IRA balance. So if 80% of your total IRA money is pre-tax, then 80% of any conversion will be taxable regardless of which specific dollars you're converting.

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Has anyone used TurboTax for reporting backdoor Roth contributions? I'm finding it super confusing how to enter everything correctly, especially for contributions made for 2023 in early 2024.

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Nia Thompson

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TurboTax actually handles this pretty well but it's not obvious. You need to go to the IRA contributions section and make sure you select "nondeductible contributions." It'll then walk you through Form 8606. Just make sure you indicate which tax year the contribution was for. For the conversion, that goes in a separate section under "IRA distributions.

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Starting Self Employment in 2024 - Do I Need to Pay Estimated Self Employment Tax?

I just started freelancing as a graphic designer this year, and I'm projecting to make roughly $28,000 from this self-employed work by December, plus about $4,000 from a part-time retail job I had in the first quarter (got a W-2 for that). I'm trying to figure out if I need to make quarterly estimated tax payments for self employment tax. The IRS website has this section under Estimated taxes that's confusing me: "You don't have to pay estimated tax for the current year if you meet all three of the following conditions. * You had no tax liability for the prior year * You were a U.S. citizen or resident alien for the whole year * Your prior tax year covered a 12-month period" I'm assuming this covers both federal/state income tax AND self-employment tax? To double-check, I downloaded Form 1040-ES and worked through the Estimate tax worksheet for Form 1040-SS filers. Line 6c says to choose the smaller of 6a: 90% of 2024 Estimated taxable income: $3,578, and 6b: Tax amount from 2023 = $0, and this is the annual estimated payment I should make. So does this mean because I had zero tax liability last year (or specifically zero self-employment tax liability), I don't have to make quarterly estimated payments? Does this just mean I'll be responsible for paying the full 15.3% on all my 2024 self-employed income when I file my return in early 2025? And for regular income tax, will it be 10% on whatever exceeds the standard deduction of $14,600? (Assuming I don't hit the next tax bracket

Mei Lin

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Something the other comments haven't mentioned - don't forget about your state taxes! The federal safe harbor rule about having no tax liability last year may not apply the same way for your state estimated taxes. Here in California, for example, they have their own rules about when you need to make estimated payments. Also, even though you don't have to make quarterly payments this year, it might be a good idea to make some voluntary payments anyway. When I first started freelancing, I didn't pay anything until tax time and got hit with a $6,000 bill that was really hard to manage all at once. Setting aside some money each month helps a lot.

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Aisha Khan

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Good point about state taxes! I'm in Illinois and haven't even thought about that side of things. Would I use the same 1040-ES form to calculate what I might owe the state, or is there a separate process for that?

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Mei Lin

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For state taxes, you'll need to use your state's specific forms, not the federal 1040-ES. Each state has its own estimated tax forms and procedures. For Illinois, you'll want to look up form IL-1040-ES, which is their estimated tax payment form. States also have different thresholds and requirements for when you need to make estimated payments. Some states follow the federal safe harbor rules, while others have their own unique requirements. I'd recommend checking the Illinois Department of Revenue website or giving them a call to confirm their specific rules about estimated taxes for self-employment income.

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Don't forget you can deduct half of your self-employment tax on your 1040! A lot of new freelancers miss this. So while you pay 15.3% on your self-employment income, you get to deduct 7.65% of that when calculating your income tax. It doesn't reduce your SE tax, but it does lower your income tax. Also, track ALL your business expenses - software, equipment, portion of internet/phone used for business, mileage for business travel, etc. These reduce your net self-employment income, which lowers both your SE tax and income tax.

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Is the self-employment tax deduction an itemized deduction or can you take it even if you use the standard deduction?

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Ava Martinez

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Don't forget to look into stepped-up basis rules! If your name wasn't the only one on the deed and your father had partial ownership, his portion would receive a stepped-up basis to the fair market value at his date of death. This could significantly reduce your capital gains tax liability. Also, keep in mind that if you used the home to care for your father, you might qualify for some medical expense deductions if you paid for modifications to the home for medical care (wheelchair ramps, grab bars, etc.). These are deductible as medical expenses if they exceed the 7.5% AGI threshold.

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That's interesting about the stepped-up basis, but unfortunately the house was solely in my name from the beginning. We never did a joint ownership. However, I did install a wheelchair ramp and some bathroom modifications for him last year. I hadn't even thought about claiming those as medical expenses! Is there a specific form I need to use for that?

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Ava Martinez

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Since the property was solely in your name, you're right that the stepped-up basis wouldn't apply. However, those modifications for your father's care are definitely potential medical expense deductions. You would claim these on Schedule A as itemized deductions under medical expenses. You'll need to keep receipts for the wheelchair ramp and bathroom modifications as supporting documentation. Remember that total medical expenses are only deductible to the extent they exceed 7.5% of your adjusted gross income. If the modifications were substantial, they could help you reach that threshold, especially combined with other medical expenses you may have incurred.

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Has anyone used FreeTaxUSA for a situation like this? TurboTax kept confusing me when I tried to enter the sale of my mother-in-law's home that was in our name.

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I used FreeTaxUSA last year for a similar scenario with my aunt's house. It was actually much clearer than TurboTax for entering the capital gains info. They have a specific section for sale of home where you can indicate it wasn't your primary residence, and then it walks you through calculating your basis and gain or loss. So much cheaper than TurboTax too!

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