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Code 971 just means they're sending you a notice - don't panic! I went through this same thing a few months back and it turned out to be no big deal. While you're waiting for the letter to arrive, you might want to check out taxr.ai to get a breakdown of what's actually happening with your return. It's only $1 and gives you way more detail than trying to decode these cryptic codes yourself. Saved me a lot of stress when I was in your shoes! š
Thanks for the reassurance! Been stressing about this all week. Definitely gonna check out taxr.ai - seems like everyone here is recommending it. $1 is way better than losing sleep over these codes š
I think a lot of people overlook the fact that Form 5471 has different categories of filers. For a 50% ownership in a foreign corp, you're most likely a Category 5 filer. The important thing is disclosure - the penalties for not filing can be steep ($10k+ per form per year). If the business truly has no operations, minimal expenses and no bank accounts, your Form 5471 would be pretty basic but still required. The cost shouldn't be that high for a simple filing with minimal info - you might find a US expat tax specialist who would do just this form for a reasonable fee rather than a full tax return.
Thanks, this is super helpful. So even though we never really operated, just the fact that we registered the business means I need to file? Is there any threshold for "minimal expenses" - we spent maybe £200 total on samples before abandoning the project.
Yes, the registration itself created a legal entity that you partially own, which triggers the Form 5471 filing requirement regardless of the minimal activity. The IRS is primarily concerned with disclosure of foreign entities, even dormant ones. There's no specific threshold for "minimal expenses" that exempts you from filing. However, the £200 you spent would simply be reported as expenses on the form. The good news is that with such minimal activity, your form would be quite straightforward - many sections would be zeros or not applicable. This is exactly the type of situation where the simplified reporting under Revenue Procedure 92-70 might be applicable, as others have mentioned.
I had a similar situation with a business i registered in australia that never really did anything. one important thing to consider: the statute of limitations doesn't start running on your tax returns until you've filed all required international forms. so if you don't file the 5471, theoretically the irs could audit your returns from that year forever!!!
@Asher Levin Wait, that statute of limitations thing sounds terrifying! So you re'saying if I don t'file the Form 5471 for my UK business, the IRS could potentially audit me years down the road even if I file everything else correctly? That s'exactly the kind of nightmare scenario I was worried about. How did you find out about this - did a tax professional tell you or did you discover it through research? I m'starting to think I really can t'afford NOT to file this form, even if the business never did anything substantial.
@Asher Levin This is exactly what happened to me! I had a dormant business in Canada that I forgot about for 3 years. When I finally consulted a tax attorney, they explained that the statute of limitations on my entire tax return stays open until I file all required international forms. It s'called the incomplete "return doctrine -" basically the IRS considers your return incomplete if you re'missing required schedules or forms. I ended up qualifying for the reasonable "cause exception" since I genuinely didn t'know about Form 5471 requirements. Had to write a detailed letter explaining the circumstances and provide documentation showing the business was truly inactive. The IRS waived the penalties, but it was a stressful 8-month process. Definitely file the form even if it s'mostly zeros - the peace of mind is worth it and it starts your statute of limitations clock ticking.
This is such a common source of confusion! I went through the exact same panic when I first noticed this on my tax documents. It's completely normal and actually reassuring that you're paying attention to the details on your transcript. One thing that might help for future reference - when you're looking at IRS forms or documents, they'll often use "TIN" in the instructions or field labels because the form needs to work for everyone (citizens using SSN, foreign workers using ITIN, businesses using EIN, etc.). But for most individual taxpayers like yourself, wherever you see "Enter your TIN," you just enter your SSN. The IRS transcript showing matching numbers is actually a good sign that everything is consistent in their system. No red flags there at all!
This is actually a really smart question to ask! I remember being confused about this same thing when I first started doing my own taxes. The terminology can be really confusing when you're new to it. Just to add one more perspective - if you ever get an ITIN in the future (like if you have a spouse who's not eligible for an SSN), that would be a different 9-digit number that starts with 9. But for you as a U.S. citizen, your SSN IS your TIN, so seeing identical numbers on your transcript is exactly what you should expect. It's actually kind of refreshing to see someone being so careful about checking their documents! That attention to detail will serve you well during tax season.
This is exactly the kind of detail-oriented thinking that prevents bigger problems down the road! I wish more people would double-check their documents like this. When I first started filing taxes, I just assumed everything was correct and didn't catch a mistake on my W-2 until it caused issues with my refund. Now I always review everything carefully like you're doing.
This is such a timely discussion! I'm dealing with a similar situation but with an added wrinkle - one of my partnerships changed their reporting method mid-stream. For the first two years, they reported my guaranteed payments in Box 5 as interest, but last year they switched to Box 4b without any changes to the partnership agreement. When I called to ask about the change, the partnership's accountant said they got advice that Box 4b was "more appropriate" for guaranteed payments for capital contributions, but couldn't give me specifics about what changed their analysis. This creates a headache for me because now I have inconsistent treatment across years for the identical economic arrangement. Has anyone dealt with a partnership changing their reporting approach? Should I be concerned about this inconsistency, or is it actually a correction that's beneficial in the long run? I'm also curious - for those who've spoken with IRS agents about this topic, did they indicate any preference for how partnerships should be reporting these payments? Or is it truly just a matter of reasonable interpretation based on the agreement terms?
I haven't personally dealt with a partnership changing their reporting method mid-stream, but from what I understand, this kind of inconsistency across years could potentially raise questions if you're audited. However, if the partnership made the change based on better tax advice, it's likely they corrected to a more defensible position. The fact that they switched from Box 5 to Box 4b suggests they may have gotten advice that your arrangement truly constitutes guaranteed payments under Section 707(c) rather than interest payments. This could actually be beneficial long-term if it better reflects the legal substance of your investment. I'd recommend documenting the partnership's explanation for the change and keeping it with your tax records. If questioned, you can show that the partnership made the change based on professional advice, not arbitrary decision-making. You might also want to ask the partnership for a written explanation of why they believe Box 4b treatment is more appropriate - this could be helpful if consistency issues come up later. As for IRS preferences, from what others have shared here, it seems like agents focus more on whether the reporting matches the actual terms of the partnership agreement rather than having a blanket preference for one box over another.
I've been following this thread closely because I'm dealing with almost identical issues with my partnership investments. What strikes me is how much confusion exists even among tax professionals about the proper treatment of guaranteed payments for capital. One thing I'd add to this discussion is the importance of looking at the actual partnership agreement language. I've found that many partnerships use terms like "preferred return," "priority distribution," and "guaranteed payment" interchangeably, but they have very different tax implications. A true guaranteed payment under Section 707(c) is supposed to be determined without regard to partnership income - meaning you get paid even if the partnership loses money. If your payment is contingent on partnership profits, it's more likely an allocation that should go in Box 1, not a guaranteed payment in Box 4. For those dealing with PFIC issues, I'd strongly recommend getting professional help with the QEF elections. The timing and calculation requirements are incredibly complex, and mistakes can be costly. The excess distribution rules under Section 1291 are particularly punitive if you don't have a proper QEF election in place. Regarding the NIIT question - yes, both guaranteed payments for capital and interest income are generally subject to the 3.8% Net Investment Income Tax if you're not materially participating in the business. The "nonpassive" characterization on Schedule E doesn't exempt it from NIIT. Has anyone here dealt with partnerships that converted from domestic to foreign entities? I'm curious about the tax consequences of that conversion itself, separate from the ongoing PFIC issues.
Great point about the partnership agreement language! I'm actually dealing with a conversion situation right now - one of my partnerships converted from a Delaware LLC to a Bermuda company last year, and it's been a nightmare trying to figure out the tax implications. From what I've researched, the conversion itself is generally treated as a taxable liquidation of the domestic partnership followed by a purchase of the foreign entity. This means I had to recognize my share of the partnership's assets at fair market value, which created a significant tax bill even though I didn't receive any cash. The real kicker is that now I'm dealing with PFIC rules going forward, plus I had to make various elections (like the QEF election) to avoid even worse tax treatment. My tax preparer warned me that missing any of these elections or filing deadlines could result in the punitive excess distribution regime you mentioned. One thing that caught me off guard was the Form 8865 reporting requirements during the conversion year - apparently there are specific disclosure rules when a domestic partnership becomes foreign. The penalties for missing these filings are substantial. Have you found any good resources for navigating these conversions? The IRS guidance seems scattered across multiple regulations and revenue rulings.
Mateo Martinez
22 Don't forget that after age 72 (or 73 depending on your birth year with the SECURE Act 2.0), you'll need to take Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs) from your traditional 401k/IRA anyway. Those distributions are taxable but still don't count as earned income for Roth contribution purposes. This is why many people try to build up their Roth accounts earlier in their retirement journey - to have more tax-free withdrawal options later.
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Mateo Martinez
ā¢1 That's a good point about RMDs. I'm worried about tax implications when I have to start taking those distributions. Would doing Roth conversions earlier help reduce the RMD tax hit later?
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Nia Jackson
ā¢Yes, doing Roth conversions earlier can definitely help reduce your future RMD tax burden! When you convert money from a traditional IRA/401k to a Roth, you're essentially reducing the balance that will be subject to RMDs later. Since Roth IRAs don't have RMD requirements during the owner's lifetime, that converted money won't be forced out as taxable income after age 72/73. The key is to do conversions strategically during your early retirement years when you might be in a lower tax bracket. For example, if you retire at 60 and have little other income before Social Security kicks in, you could convert amounts that keep you in the 12% or 22% tax bracket rather than potentially being pushed into higher brackets by large RMDs later. Just make sure to plan for the taxes on conversions - you'll want to have cash available to pay the tax bill without having to withdraw from retirement accounts.
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Aaron Boston
Great question! This is a common confusion point for retirees. As others have mentioned, 401k withdrawals unfortunately don't qualify as "earned income" for Roth IRA contribution purposes. The IRS defines earned income very specifically as compensation from work - wages, salaries, self-employment income, etc. However, you have several good alternatives to consider: 1. **Part-time work**: Even minimal earned income (consulting, part-time job, gig work) would allow you to contribute to a Roth IRA up to the amount you earned that year. 2. **Roth conversions**: You can convert money from your traditional 401k/IRA to a Roth IRA without needing earned income. This isn't a "contribution" but achieves a similar goal of getting money into a Roth account. 3. **Spousal IRA**: If you're married and your spouse has earned income, they can contribute to an IRA for you even if you don't work. The key is planning this strategy before you fully retire. Many people do a combination of small amounts of earned income plus strategic Roth conversions during their early retirement years to maximize their tax-advantaged savings.
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Arjun Kurti
ā¢This is really helpful! I hadn't thought about the spousal IRA option. My wife will probably keep working part-time even after I retire, so that could be a good backup plan. One question though - if I do some consulting work to generate earned income, do I need to worry about self-employment taxes on top of regular income taxes? I'm trying to figure out if the tax burden would eat up too much of the benefit of being able to contribute to the Roth.
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Melina Haruko
ā¢Yes, you'll need to pay self-employment taxes on consulting income, which adds about 15.3% (Social Security and Medicare taxes) on top of regular income taxes. However, there are ways to minimize this impact: 1. **Keep it small**: If you only need to earn enough for Roth contributions ($7,000-$8,000), the SE tax hit isn't huge and the long-term Roth benefits often outweigh it. 2. **Business deductions**: As a consultant, you can deduct business expenses (home office, equipment, travel) which reduces your net self-employment income. 3. **Compare to alternatives**: Run the numbers against doing Roth conversions instead. Conversions avoid SE taxes but you'll pay regular income tax on the converted amount. The spousal IRA route with your wife's earned income might actually be the cleanest solution tax-wise if she's working part-time anyway. You could contribute to a spousal Roth IRA based on her earnings without dealing with SE taxes at all.
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